Suggestion Forum Poll: PUP (10/03/09)

[urthdigger]

On our last poll, it was more or less decided that of all the jobs that need the most love to become accepted by the playerbase, Puppetmaster was at the top of the list. I should mention that a part of me wanted to take the true result of the poll and ask what suggestions should be made to fix the playerbase, but given the opinions against me even including that option, I have decided not to.

Indeed, Puppetmaster is quite a sticky situation, and an interesting case when it comes to balance. While most jobs slowly build up their power as they get new and more powerful gear, spells, and abilities, puppetmaster basically gets all it's abilities at level 1, albeit it is very expensive to do so. This has created the opinion of PUP as a job that is both incredibly expensive, and at the same time underpowered. The truth is that most attachments are reasonably priced, save for the ones from Pulling the Strings, the Ashu Talif quests, and Ob, and that in the hands of a skilled puppetmaster the job can be very powerful. I've looked over what the people have asked for as far as the job goes, and the poll options are as follows.

1: Improve automaton AI. Possibly the best manner to achieve balance by making the rift between an average puppetmaster and a great puppetmaster smaller, without actually affecting the job's power as a whole. The downside is that AI changes are complicated and prone to causing bugs, or making previous strategies unusable.

2: Improve gear selection. One of the biggest mockeries of PUP is that, although a melee class, it's gear selection is comprised of mage oriented gear. This would improve the job by making it a bit less reliant on the automaton, but this would likely come at the penalty of reducing the automaton's power.

3: Improve the master's abilities. Whether by increasing it's h2h rating, or giving the master more job abilities, this is the idea of making puppetmaster able to function more on par with a DRG or BST does, where they are not completely useless when their pet bites the dust. However, this has the same issues as the above option

4: Improve automaton defenses. Quite simply, make it not die so easily when it pulls hate or gets hit by AoE, or even possibly make it capable of tanking to give PUP a coveted role in parties.

5: Other, elaborate in thread. It's possible there's an idea for improving the job that I have not seen.

[Silas]

in all honestly i believe that there is a great balance to the job. Here is my opinions

1) By improving AI, i believe it takes some of the spirit out of the job. Granted the player has the title "Master", the job is more a less a partnership. By having the AI have some bugs, it allows it to simulate that of a regular player. Sometimes they have good days, and then well.....you get a regen 3 instead of a cure

2) If i had any of the DD gear my sam has for my pup, this job would be over powered. Just by sheer brute force, it would be a double team oppose to one united force.

3) I could sympathize with this. After all, i am NOT a dark knight....i would like to hit my target a tad more often

4) i also agree 100% with this

5) The one most annoying aspect of this job is the low drop rate of some attachments. This in turn drives up the costs of these parts and creates difficulty for some players to be efficient as they can- Maybe if there were some quest specific items you can get similar to that of Sleepga II, or Ballad- maybe more people would be open to playing the job, and in turn would lower its 'lolpup' status


my two cents, cash em if u need em

[liandras]

Okay first vote, and I voted defense. We have 4 attachments that modify Physical and magical defense stats, all unverified on how much each attachment contributes to the defensive stats.. And ALL of it pretty much being meaningless at the end of the day.

We have attachments to reduce successive hits, We have attachments that give "BlinK" shadows. But still despite all of this, the base defense of the automaton is that of used toilette paper. You can stack on Auto-repair attachments and give your DD frame 1800 +HP however that's only enhancing your Defense by giving a mob more HP to chew.

Adjusting the ratio's of the defense given by the 4 attachments in question, or even volunteering PRECISE damage reduction calculations (I'm staring at you SE..) would go a long way to alleviate the general feeling of feeling like your automaton can't take any hits.

I don't even bother with the replicator, the mobs that I traditionally fight and double, triple attacks or TP moves that stun or knock back.

The other suggestions.

1. Improving Automaton AI, I see this as needed in the future.. Slight tweaks, knowing to do cannibal blade, and not bone crusher even WHEN you have the triggering maneuver up for Cannibal blade).. Curing etc. Hero mode ftl >.> ... Just not now, at the moment any pup worth his or her job title can work around the deficiencies of the automaton AI. Tweaks would be nice, not mandatory.

2. Gear selection, Honestly I've harped about this a lot on these boards but Still not something I'd like to see prioritized. New gear is added with every update... Augments allow the equipment to be much more versatile than it otherwise would be.

3. Master abilities. This was a tough one. The master isn't a monk, the master isn't a war, the master isn't a heavy DD like a dark or sam. We're a puppetmaster and all the abilities we have at our disposal work around this fact. That's why no native job ability to boost our own attack/defense etc. It's all focused on the automaton, which It should be. People complain that the automaton does MOST of the work for us, and that is purely a playerbase flaw. There are latent gear items available to boost our specific stats which allows us to function more proficiently. We have access to Faith torque, giving us H2h skill. an look at all the /mnk latent stuff just for the heck of it. (Yes I /mnk to screw around, and I will wear the latent stuff. Or /drg for haste or what ever triggers my fancy for the day.) We simply don't need to change the focus towards Master, from automaton . Not when we have equipment that does it for us.. The Automaton needs some love.

4. I mentioned above.

5. Access to weaponry would be nice to be expanded upon, We don't get to wear faith claws, we get a %)*@&%)@ Staff instead. We don't get access to destroyers, nor many other of the crit+ weapons that dropped from feiyin.. It's kind of laughable at the access of weaponry we get. Releasing Puppetmaster specific craftable claws would be nice, giving augments to speed of maneuvers or overload rate. HP augments, defense augments, things of that nature.

Oils. We have three types of oils, all concerning HP. One would think, you would have other types of lubricants for your frames.. Coolants to keep it from overheating (overload), alchemy concoctions to trigger or sustain mana/magic boosts... Things of that sort. Might be a boon to the economy for alchemists? Lord knows I can't find a soul who can make plasma oils for me >.<

[Tahngarthor]

Again, PUP isn't weak, the playerbase's opinion based on PUPs playing a complex job poorly is the problem. The only thing they can do besides new gear or buff HTH is make it "easier" to play, the same way they're making the rest of the game easier...

3. Master abilities. This was a tough one. The master isn't a monk, the master isn't a war, the master isn't a heavy DD like a dark or sam. We're a puppetmaster and all the abilities we have at our disposal work around this fact. That's why no native job ability to boost our own attack/defense etc. It's all focused on the automaton, which It should be.

It's not all focused on the automaton, nor is it all focused on the master. Both should be working as a team and both should be enhanced to their fullest potential to play the job well. I'm absolutely sick of people going "its all puppet" or "its all master." PUP has no native attack enhancements because the job would be seriously overpowered if it did, NOT because we weren't meant to fight. The player should be giving himself as much attention as the automaton, because lets face it, there's a fixed number of things you can get for your puppet, and they're all permanent once you obtain them. Gil aside, it doesn't take much to get everything the puppet needs, and thus the master then needs attention.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest. Give us cool new maton toys, give us new melee gear, give us everything. Don't listen to all this "it should be all about the puppet" crap. Summoner and BST are all about the pet, DRG is all about the master with a little sidekick with some handy tricks, PUP blurs the line and is in between. This is just a pet peeve for me becausee the job has serious potential that most people choose to ignore, thus leading to PUP's poor reputation.

[urthdigger]

I believe I stated in my initial post that I understand that in the right hands (Someone who knows how the job plays and has the gil for some of the better attachments) can be VERY powerful

[Tahngarthor]

It was purely a reaction to the above "It's all about the automaton" crap. The automaton got tons of love almost every patch after ToAU until WoTG. It doesnt' need more love. If you want to be a good PUP, you need to give yourself just as much love.

[Nightfyre]

Spoiler:

PUP doesn't need updating. Anybody who's partied with a decent PUP knows the Automaton alone takes the top spot in a low-level EXP party fairly often, add in the master and you've easily got 30-40% of the parse out of a lolpup. The gear limitations at lower levels exist for a reason. Hell, taking PUP as far as i have even without all the attachments still left me with an incredibly powerful duo partner. On the other hand, lack of ability to buff the Auto aside from Maneuvers led to a need for actual DD gear at upper levels. Enter Cobra, Enkidu, and Usukane along with some pieces of AF and AF2.

I wouldn't mind seeing -na/Cure prioritization reversed or at least tweaked, but even that's a very small complaint that shouldn't come up much if you know what you're doing.

Spoilered because even regardless of need i wouldn't mind PUP updates

[Bastion]

For AI, I think something like the way we modify how our Fellow behaves would be perfect. Have an NPC (or spot) in all cities, who lets you;

Choose between prioritizing -na use, heals, or default.
Being able to set how aggressive the auto is when using weaponskills. (spamming or only doing weaponskills that will chain)
Prioritizing a particular spell element or type (nukes vs. enfeebles).
Distance to enemy (rush in or stay back and support)

I don't think the AI needs an overhaul, it just needs to be able to be tweaked a bit for each PUP.


This would add to the learning curve though...

[Hiachi]

I voted AI...not that I'm hoping for some major AI overhauls, just some tweaking that makes those "wth, automaton?!" moments happen less and less. Specifically WHM Auto, but other areas in general.

If there were a way to pick your 'secondary vote' on the poll, mine would be automaton defense. I don't think that the Auto should be on-par with monster defense traits, or even a full PLD when its set up for VE...but it could definitely use more defense that it currently has.

[liandras]

Again, PUP isn't weak, the playerbase's opinion based on PUPs playing a complex job poorly is the problem. The only thing they can do besides new gear or buff HTH is make it "easier" to play, the same way they're making the rest of the game easier...

3. Master abilities. This was a tough one. The master isn't a monk, the master isn't a war, the master isn't a heavy DD like a dark or sam. We're a puppetmaster and all the abilities we have at our disposal work around this fact. That's why no native job ability to boost our own attack/defense etc. It's all focused on the automaton, which It should be.

It's not all focused on the automaton, nor is it all focused on the master. Both should be working as a team and both should be enhanced to their fullest potential to play the job well. I'm absolutely sick of people going "its all puppet" or "its all master." PUP has no native attack enhancements because the job would be seriously overpowered if it did, NOT because we weren't meant to fight. The player should be giving himself as much attention as the automaton, because lets face it, there's a fixed number of things you can get for your puppet, and they're all permanent once you obtain them. Gil aside, it doesn't take much to get everything the puppet needs, and thus the master then needs attention.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest. Give us cool new maton toys, give us new melee gear, give us everything. Don't listen to all this "it should be all about the puppet" crap. Summoner and BST are all about the pet, DRG is all about the master with a little sidekick with some handy tricks, PUP blurs the line and is in between. This is just a pet peeve for me becausee the job has serious potential that most people choose to ignore, thus leading to PUP's poor reputation.

How many times have I used the word "Synergy" when talking about a balance between master and automaton? I have a firm belief the MASTER is fine, and the AUTOMATON is only need MINOR adjustments. It doesn't need job abilities, it doesn't need gear, it needs to be expanded upon the capabilities of the job itself. Augment BOTH sides, but addressing the automaton because the COMMON misbelief is that the automaton is the achilles heel of the job. >.>

How many jobs can go out there, in the middle of mamool ja staging grounds and Nuke pets without linking or getting hate all by itself? How many jobs got NERFED because they could solo diabolos pretty much hate free? Puppetmaster is awesome, some refining touches is all that's needed.

Really I posted conservatively. It's not like I'm aciel asking pup to be nerfed because it's too strong. AKA DAD is a cheat threads... My entire paragraph of the "Master isn't" is that the playerbase tries to compare us to every other job in the game, when we are quite unique in what we do and how we play. There is no other job that can, will, or could do the things that we can do. We have at our disposal maybe not armor, but vast amounts of accessories that we can use to become literally a jack of all trades. /brd and ballads. /whm and support curing. /sch and sleep nuking with pets. /mnk for h2h bonus's from latent gear where the h2h might possibly be a bonus (I use it for screwing around to see what I can do).

But Most of the primary examples of people needing changes to this job to let it excel even further than it does revolves solely around the automaton.

Which is why I voted on defense adjustments. It's the single most complained about reason we lose Automatons.. "AOE killed it" An my main suggestion is for SE to step up and explain our 4 defensive attachments better. We know which maneuvers trigger it, but not the thresholds. Why should I be forced to put attachments on my automaton that negate damage only after it gets facestabbed for a crit hit?

Why should I be forced to put an attachment on the automaton, whore wind maneuvers and PRAY that it survives long enough for blink to go off and that the following attacks are eaten by blink?

I'm not saying everything you said I'm saying, you're having a knee jerk reaction. That's okay, that's me every other post than that. Please re read it, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying at all. Slight, subtle touches.. Not ZOMG AUTOMATON IS TEH SUX.

I wasn't SAYING it was all about the automaton. Oi.

====

Edited to add.

My comment about all focused on the automaton is in regards to our current job abilities. Maneuvers = Automaton. Repair = Automaton. Activate = Automaton. Deploy = Automaton. Deactivate = Automaton.

See the gist of that? While other jobs have job abilities for the master. Like dragoon and Spirit Surge, and super climb or Beastmaster and Snarl. THose abilities are for the master, not the pet. Both pets are self sufficient.

DD jobs have trait boosting abilities, mages have spell boosting abilities. Puppetmaster abilities revolve solely around the automaton as they should. Versatility comes from gear equipment, and subjob selection. We aren't EVERY other DD, we are unique in we gear for stats that are beneficial or may be beneficial for both parts of our job. Are we nuking? Slap on relic legs and feet. Are we doing damage and back up curing with WHM ai for soloing? Sweet mixture of AF, Relic, and Usu/P.gear/Cobra. You get the gist of what I'm saying.

Gearing up Pup is not like gearing up Sam. Lets see, what do I want to do today on sam.> Face stab for a lot of damage. *Grabs TP, ATT/str, ACC gear* And off to murder.

Pup requires much more thought if you really want to do the job right, and not end up a pincushion on the ground.

And re-edited because I haven't slept in two days and I can't remember how to edit a post right

[Tahngarthor]

Gearing up Pup is not like gearing up Sam. Lets see, what do I want to do today on sam.> Face stab for a lot of damage. *Grabs TP, ATT/str, ACC gear* And off to murder.

Actually it is, because there's only a handful of things you can put on yourself that change your automaton.

Judge not how to gear your job by the job abilities. So what if puppetmaster has 20 commands that make the puppet do things? He's also got Stringing Pummel, a hand to hand weapon, gear with good melee stats and a typical subjob that provides offensive bonuses. By golly, people should be using them!

The subjob complements the main job. /NIN doesnt give you more attack abilities, it gives you (primarily) a defensive ability. WAR doesnt give the puppetmaster more pet commands, it gives them more attack power.

In an unusual departure, what equipment you benefit more from depends on your race. Tarutaru are going to gain more from the gear available that adds to their automaton; galka and elvaan have greater natural melee prowess and can gain more from the DD gear. There are lots of things to consider. But take a look at beastmaster. They can take control of strong mobs and all their abilities tell the mob what to do- but they still wear DD gear. I don't know what you're trying to say by pointing out that all of PUPs abilities affect the automaton. That says nothing about what gear you should wear or what role you should play. BST is very much like pup with regard to this situation and what do they do? find better melee gear and kill stuff faster. The problem here is most gear forces you to choose between effects on you and effects on the pet- and an undeniable fact is most of the items with effects that can be applied to you are stronger than the ones that mainly benefit the pet. (At least PUP gets a relic cape with +15 attack for BOTH master AND pet- We want more stuff like this!)

All I know is we dont need more pet commands, the automaton is fine the way it is, aside from some AI tweaks that could be made. PUP just needs a general effectiveness increase of like 5% - Something that will allow more PUPs to perform acceptably instead of only the elite few.

As was said in the previous poll, the problem is less the job itself and more the playerbase. But in my personal opinion, the only place PUP can really get more powerful without something like a totally new frame (for buffing, or something) is by becoming a better DD. that means more damage, both from the master and the automaton. It's not going to get any better at healing than it is now, and it's already a darn good nuker in most cases. Enhancement abilities are the only thing PUP completely lacks.

[Hideka]

where is the none option? pup has nothing wrong with it, nor does it need improving..... it could use an AI tweak or two, but nothing major. its a stable powerful job, and GOOD IN EVENTS if your pup isnt a total failure at FFXI (LETZ WAIR EVAZUSHUNZ GEAR T U KIRUN GAIZX!). this forum thread should have had the "lol playerbase" option for voting :/

if anything it should have the dificulty of attaining attachments lowered. the hefty price on the more useful attachments is a huge deterent to having GOOD pups in the game.

[Tahngarthor]

As I touched on, if you work really hard, PUP can play with the big boys. But the problem is, PUP is very hard to play correctly, and all the good gear is time consuming or expensive to get, making it very hard for the typical PUP to look good, even though it's perfectly capable of being good.

[Hideka]

For AI, I think something like the way we modify how our Fellow behaves would be perfect. Have an NPC (or spot) in all cities, who lets you;
Choose between prioritizing -na use, heals, or default. z
Being able to set how aggressive the auto is when using weaponskills. (spamming or only doing weaponskills that will chain)
Prioritizing a particular spell element or type (nukes vs. enfeebles).
Distance to enemy (rush in or stay back and support)

.

ermm......
Choose between prioritizing -na use, heals, or default. Answer: Damage gauge

Being able to set how aggressive the auto is when using weaponskills. (spamming or only doing weaponskills that will chain) Answer: Inhibitor&go=1">Inhibitor

Prioritizing a particular spell element or type (nukes vs. enfeebles) Answer: Mana Booster&go=1">Mana Booster Tactical Processor&go=1">Tactical Processor Scanner&go=1">Scanner

Distance to enemy (rush in or stay back and support) distance from the mob is based on your current frame unless im mistaken. also its not gona run away if you deploy it right next to the monster....

you seem like a nice person and all.... but that kind of post is like an open target for mean people like me ;_; if pups took the time to go out and get the proper attachments, and learn how to properly manipulate the AI theyd find that pup isnt quite so lol anymore. fer cryin out loud, pups limitbreaker title is " Master of manipulation" >_> you gota learn how to manipulate the AI lawl

[Hideka]

As I touched on, if you work really hard, PUP can play with the big boys. But the problem is, PUP is very hard to play correctly, and all the good gear is time consuming or expensive to get, making it very hard for the typical PUP to look good, even though it's perfectly capable of being good.

lol that goes for ANY dd job.... you just dont get 75 and go Whelp guys im a sick dd now and i dont need to do any work towards it. nah you gota go build up merits and gear just like every other job lol. thats like being a samurai and NOT having a good great katana/any merits or even not having pole arm leveled up. thats like coming to Jailer of temperance with only one damage type >_> (every single DD can wield atleast 2-3 of the damage types effectively). honestly if your ok with being a typical player, then thats fine. dont !@#$%& about it when people dont invite you or make fun of you lol

sorry if it sounds like im being an elietist !@#$%& lol, its just the way the world works ingame and out of game. if you only aspire to be average, typical, or normal, thats all youll ever turn out as.