Zenni NM fomration versus already endgame Ls doing em.

[willriker]

man... you play a social game. i have never known ffxi to be individualistic in nature. Its not individualistic in exp, NM, HNM, Mission's, BC's, KS's, Salvage, Nuzul Isle, Assaults, Einherjar, and many quests. All of which are best. "Easiest", when done with a certain setup of party members. All of which require coordination, strategy, and tactics based upon a group. Infact, almost all solowork is actualy considered to be an impressive feat.

Guess what, this extends into ZNM's as well.

I really think its time to stop complaining about it.

[Baelorn]

There's a difference between 3 people for a KSNM or BCNM and 13-18 people for a ZNM. I'm not arguing that they should be easily solo'd but they shouldn't take hours to organize if you're not in an HNMLS.

[Aries73]

To be perfectly honest, I have been bitterly disappointed with the whole ZNM system. It was quite daring of S-E to tease most of the playerbase with equipment with some of the most attractive stats imaginable, then revealing that they come from monsters that only endgame dead-enders can take down.

From the recent Campaign adjustments to the ZNM arrangement, it seems as though S-E is catering far too much to the "hardcore" (read: having no real life) endgame cliques who think casual players shouldn't be able to have good equipment, regardless of the effort they put forth.

[Sealdorie]

I haven't really gotten into the ZNM thing yet (have had other goals as of late), but I did try to duo the clot and 4 man the puk the first week ZNMs came out (got owned, but no one knew anything about them at the time).

I asked this question in another ZNM thread, and didn't get a response so I won't ask the entire question again... but.

Are there any current guides/written strats out there right now for "casual" gamers. And by that I mean a guide for a 6 man party with AH gear and semi merited characters? If not, I wonder if any of the people who can solo and low man these currently would be willing to take off all that god gear, regear with AH gear and write one for us.

Course once I actually get around to doing these 6 man I'll probably take notes and eventually write my own guides up. Not like dying a few dozen times bothers me or anything.

Anyway, the point I'm making is... coming from an outsider looking at the conversation and not having any real experience in the matter. Can the people saying that it IS easy and can be done low man still low man it without all their end game gear? If so, and if by "low man" you're talking a party of 6... then I think SE did a good job making something for casual players. If not, then I guess the end game guys have another event they can play with while the casual guys who don't have the time to join an end game shell, or get together 12-18 people will just be sticking to campaign gear.

[willriker]

well many are soloable with a rdm/nin and DOT's and a kite path. For example, armed gears, and the lolmarid.

Others can be soloed by pet jobs (not drg), like Ob. Just have the pets do all the fighting and kite till can get another pet out.

Reacton is easy if tanks have fire resist gear. only need a tank party to win this. aka, tank tank whm brd rdm another healer. just out last him, you can gear enough fire resist to survive all his spells and even self destruct. pop and wait for self destruct is all there is too it.

Acromoth is 6 manable as well, pull is the hardest part really. I like to use (whm or rdm), brd, thf, blm, pld, thf. Once at a zoneline PLD's job is to simply survive. Damage dealers will be zoning all the time. Acromoth will periodicaly spawn a single add, Thf zones it immidiately. BLM is for damage, Uses a nice nuke and zones immidiately. Please, do not let blm rest on the halvung side of the zoneline as it screws up the zoning of adds. PLD tanks down below on the ramp, with support behind him because theyll need to rest, and cannot rest on zoneline without messing up the zoning of adds. all that is left now is time to kill it. and win. one thing to note on the fight is enaspir and a move which puts tank MP to 0. So, ways to recoup MP quickly is a must. Refresh/ballad/chiv/devotion are hany for this.

Dextrose is lol as well. the same party setup that can do Acromoth can do Dextrose. Though, and extra blm cant hurt. Fight Dextrose where it spawns.The only tricky thing involved is sleep > kill adds so they dont become too numerous while watching for stun on an aga from dextrose. Other than that, its no problem with a pld/nin or a nin/drk tank.

lilapuku is duoable with a kiter and a blm. I say blm, but any job that cant attack from a distance will do just fine. Two tricks make this fight doable with low man. Hes slower than normal movement speed, and all his enfeeebles can be avoided as long as you are not looking at it. your kiting anyhow so the kiter doesnt have an issue. only person who has an issue is person damaging it. So i like mage damage, as rng needs to look at it. also, after yawn it will run about like a chicken with its head cut off. during this time you can damage it hate free. So save WS or major nukes for this time.

As you can see, many ZNM are incredibly gimmicky. As in they have a certain something about them that can be exploited. Its programmed into the enemy. Other fights are done with exploiting certain classic job combinations or tried and true soloing techniques. Truth be told, best way to develope low man strats is to read the information on the wiki, toss out any advice on strategy/party setup and focus on enemy abilities/attackspeed/map locations for fight/and what you can toss at it to make a win. Then after the fight, i guarantee you youll learn more first hand than second hand (reading on the wiki) reevaluate your strategies and tactics to ensure a win next time. After all, the fight only cost you zeni.

And i am sure youll notice that youll notice that very few ZNM upto and including T3 require more than 6 people.

[Divada]

Gimmicky NMs <3

I'm totally going to fight more of them, then I love that sort of thing!

[Baelorn]

All of the ones you're saying can be kited can't be kited without movement+ gear. This isn't coming from me it is coming from testimonials on the wiki.

Fire resist builds? PLD/NINs? NIN/DRKs? RDM/NINs with movement speed+? These typically aren't things you're going to find outside of endgame. You can call them gimmicky but to anyone who hasn't done 150 Cerbs and 40 Khims they're not gimmicky they're really !@#$%& hard.

Edit: I'd really like you to address the question of "Do you think you could do this without all your endgame gear?"

[willriker]

Baelron... Wiki is a great resource. But anything about manitory gearing, minimum amount of people required and so on... toss out the window. They are nice as a guideline, of course. But the wiki is not gospel. Do not take it literaly. What people post are just recomended strategies/tactics nothing more. Every mob in ZNM (t3 and below) has a gimick. Expoit the gimick and you can win in low man. I can count on one hand the number of ZNM that are actualy difficult in this range of the system, and am reasonably sure i have anohter figured out enough that i can cross it off that list. (hello to you znm troll!)

So, why do i call wiki a valuable resource? Because, the wiki provides you with the TP move lists, spell lists, immunities, and general behavior information about an enemy. But even this is not complete as it is player based observations. I can personaly say that the wiki holds nothing over personal experience of actualy fighting these znm. There are many subtle nuances to each fight that can be exploited for a low man win. These are not listed in the wiki. Just for example: the Troll ZNM, you can stand just outside his melee range and it woult follow you till hes ready to tp move you. So spam for hate, and when it takes first step, run away to out run its tp move. Things like this are not listed on the Wiki. And are pivital to low manning this particualr ZNM. BTW, there are other tricks to him.

I underlined that because it is very important to understand. Just because someone tried it one way, found it difficult and made suggestions to make his strategy better through additional tactics does not mean that an entirely differant strategy would be better applied to the enemy with far better results.

gravity and bind stick on armed gears... This with DoT alone can kill it. It takes time, but it has been done. Identifying a kite path is key to it. This has nothing to do with gear, well outside of enfeebling gears that are in abundance in terms of both variety and required commitment to get.

As for resist builds, i only named one resist build. Fire resist. I have only one peice of endgame gear in my fire resist build. Get over it. Anyone can get a workable resist build.

Not once have i mentioned +movement speed being manditory. Although, I dont understand how a PLD can not have a nin sub. I also cannot understand how a NIN would not have a drk sub. This is the game we play. And, workable setups with those subs are now considered to be mantitory. If you do not have them, and a situation arizes where they would be best fit for it. You are gimped, the znm is not too hard. This is a player mistake, not an impossible ZNM situation.

I main PLD. PLD is kind of my thing. So i have the inventory space to hold extra gears i might need ot do these znm in low man. I can understand someone complaining about not having the inventory space for such gears, but there are certain peices i deem manditory use. Yes, they come from endgame. Namely haste peices. HOWEVER, a player can simply pop on a haste belt and get the same benifit i get from these gears as i believe it does stack with the haste spell and songs. If it doesnt, you still have a reasonable faximily to work with.

BWT, i have personaly witnessed Cerberus being taken out by 6 people. I must say this was a very impressive accomplishment. And, i am not saying that this type of accomplishment is on the order of 6 manning ZNM's lol. Indeed, it is quite beyond the order of magnitude for almost every znm (t3 and below). This type of accomplishment requires the endgame gears for a successful low man. ZNM does not. But even IF i was to apply this to ZNM, the ZNM versions of these enemies are nigh predictable. To use Cerberus as an example, it will howl. and something bad is coming. Melee have plenty of time to get away. Certain manuvers are HP% based, and so on. Am i saying that you can 6 man the ZNM version of Cerberus, no! But i will go as far as to say that you do not need a whole alliance of people to accomplish a win.

This is one of the few areas in the game where endgame gear does not make for an overwhelming advantage over another set of gears.

The only diferance i have found in doing ZNM's with and without endgame players is how these players react under pressure. as in, a slight kink has happened. we got a link, both the healer and the tank are paralyzed, a bad thundaga III happens, and so on. Do they know how to react? Does what they do assist in rectifying the situation or exaserbate the situation. This is the only differance that i have found. Oh, and none of this has to do with equipment but it can still cause a loss to an otherwise salvagable enemy, its about player skill in combination with how that individual initialy reacts that type of situation.

[ninesunz]

Willriker speaks the truth, the right job for the right mob! But there is almost always more than 1 way to dispose an NM.

Many people will not go the lengths of finding out what works, they like to stick to what's already proven. Myself I like to do the bizarre because to me its fun and you learn stuff. Most of the time not useful stuff but stuff

[Sealdorie]

Willriker speaks the truth, the right job for the right mob! But there is almost always more than 1 way to dispose an NM.

Many people will not go the lengths of finding out what works, they like to stick to what's already proven. Myself I like to do the bizarre because to me its fun and you learn stuff. Most of the time not useful stuff but stuff

My favorite way to do things is to learn myself, though unfortunately it's difficult to find people that share that mentality (basically because you die a ton).

Before I say this I am not saying that ZNMs are impossible by a party of 6. I haven't tried, I have no basis for judgment other than what people are saying. I'll probably use ideas from listed above strats to make my own strats understanding that the guy who wrote them has extensive end game experience and gear (looking at his sig you can see that)

Baelron's issue (I think) is this:

"Endgame guy" comes in and says: "Yea this NM is super easy to kite, in fact if you can't you're an idiot" ... failing to mention that he has movement speed+ on his equipment.

"Normal Player" reads that and tries that strategy, not knowing that he will most likely fail because he does not have the movement speed+ gear, and does... not knowing why they were not able to kite said NM.

Point being, certain gear does make life a heck of a lot easier than plain old AH gear (and by AH gear I don't mean speed belts which run about 8-10M on my server).

Some things you need to understand:

- Drk/nin is not an everyday combination. Nins who do not participate in end game don't usually have this combination. If the conversation is about "Casual Players" it isn't fair to call someone gimp because they lack this combination as it is not a traditional way to play nin outside of endgame. (I have drk sub, but I like to have everything leveled). HOWEVER if you write it in a guide that it's needed, and someone really wants to do it that way then I'm sure they'll do what they need to have it.

- "Just throw on a haste belt" is a very end gamers way of thinking. Not everyone can do KSNM99s, not everyone can get together people to do swift belts (see thread in general about the guy who got screwed over trying to get his in a shout), and not everyone can afford 8-10M. Endgamers can sure, they have LSs for that... but casual people don't always have the 5-10 hours to site in whitegate and shout to put together a party for this. Not to mention that the drop rate isn't that great (Last I went we were 0/6 on swifts, and after two years of trying I still don't have one.. and yes we have gone with thfs) It isn't as easy as you think.

No, a lot of things aren't hard to do. While I haven't looked into making a fire resist build, I'm sure I can pull something together on the AH (though I probably lack the inv space for it). Merits along with AH bought gear pretty much covers my enfeeb gear for my rdm and blm so that's covered.

I had a pretty good learning experience on this a while back with my old social shell. We wanted to do Alastor Antlion, but I couldn't find a strat that suggested how many members to bring if you lacked end game gear. So I took the strats I could find and started asking around. The one I favored was the one where you pop the feeler and run him to the zone. The guide made it sound so easy for a pld or rdm, but I soon learned from my friends that it's only that easy if you have movement speed+ gear. With that knowledge that gear was what made the run from the pop point to the zone doable I bought flee boots for my nin and popped him myself. We had 13 people, and not all of them were 75. We lost the first one due to inexperience (it was everyones but myself and two others first time with an NM like that), the second we owned, and the third the bst had an issue with killing links and our pull ended up going screwy... though after some kiting by one of my rdms and a friend who was passing through we eventually pulled ourselves together to beat it.

So again, when you're asked if ZNMs (or anything) can be done by a low man "Casual" group. Please throw all that end game gear that's in your sig out of your mind and at the very least take note when you write your guides and say "OK when I kited this guy I had movement speed+ on, so you might want to remember that he does bind fairly easily and your rdms need to watch out"


Again, I'm going to take the gimiks and guides written in this post along with all the tips on the wiki pages for the NMs and do my best to make it work for me and my 6-8 man crew (hopefully we'll have one or two more up to 75 in the next few months).

[willriker]

Awe screw it, what follows is my list of Tips and Strats for "Low Manning" ZNM T3 and under. What i did here is researched enemy information on the Wiki, bolstered it with personal experience on the ZNM, Illiminated the extranious information (information that is not relevant to my strategies). All of these i have personaly done. Your results may varry, of course.

But, I do not include kiting strategies with enemies that require Movement+. Although, if you have access, SCH + Kiter with the boots that give + movement speed would be nice to think about. As any strategy that involves kiting is obviously far easier with +movement. Though, all fights i recommend kite strategies for fall into two catagories:
1) slower movement speed than a player without +movement equipment
2) enemy has a habit of spamming spells or abilitiews that require it to stop moving. So, the kiter can get some distance on the enemy during these times. I combine this with topographical information to help increase distance between the enemy and the kiter.

Also, you will notice that some strategies (very few, mabey two?, i haven't looked at it in a couple weeks) Have the Words "Havent Fought". These are enemies i was about to fight, but for some reason or another, have not gotten the chance to do. Never the less, I made a plan of attack for these. So, i might as well post them as well.

You will note that, in the Party Arrangement sections, very very very few ZNM have more than 6 people needed with these strategies. And all but the "Havent Fought" enemies have been proven to work.

All that being said, there are some required setups to make these strategies usable. So, not ALL players will be able to take advantage of these strategies. However, i am willing to bet that a great number of players do have these types of setups. Namely workable PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK. This is because, when low manning, resources are scarce. Very scarce. The group must be as efficient as possible. The biggest possible drain on a parties resources are the tank(s). Both these job combinations require as close to 15% haste in gear as possible to be pimped. However, with BRD and RDM(and/or WHM) 10-11% haste will do the trick for most ZNM. So, please keep this in mind when reading these strategies. It is very important to remember.

[willriker]

Chamrosh

Notes:

• Has similar Evasion and Defense to a Greater Colibri, but higher Attack and Hit Points.
• Uses normal Colibri TP attacks: Feather Tickle, Pecking Flurry, and Snatch Morsel.
• Does not aggro or link with other Colibri in the area. However, caution is advised around Ziz in the nearby area that will aggro a level 75 by sight.
• Has 2 phases. Before Wisecrack and After Wisecrack
• Approximately 9,000 HP.
• Killable by a full party of level 75 players.” (pasted from Wiki)
Strategy:
• Spell lock with Dia before charmga move (Wisecrack), It will reflect spells of one teir higher. So let it reflect dia.
• Anywhere from 40-50% be ready for Wisecrack. Entire party get with in Wisecrack range so that all get charmed. Charm will wear off prematurely on one person. That person runs away, charmed people move slower than uncharmed people. An optional tactic would be to have everyone out of Wisecrack range and then trigger Wisecrack onto a PLD with fealty up to prevent charmed status.
• Once uncharmed, it will have chainspell and will no longer be able to be locked into Dia spam. Now is the time to zerg it down.
Optimum Fight Location:
• In mouth of tunnel, next to spawn point.
Party suggestions:
Blink Tank, Healer, Support, 2 DD, (SMN or DD)

[willriker]

Cheese Hoarder Gigiroon
Notes:
• Periodicaly runs away, but will return
• Links with other Qiqirn
• Tosses out Bombs, which can do decent damage
Strategy:
• Don’t chase it, as it will put out a string of bombs as it runs. And will link with enemies.
• Proper fight spot is critical
• Barfire is amazing for resists, shell helps a bit as well
• If in prime fight location, links will despawn upon Cheese Horders entery to the room.
• Damage it, let it run, and recouperate in the interim
Best fight Location:
Go into any telepad in Alzadaal Undersea Ruins then return to main map. You will spawn in the best fight room for this fight. I would give the POS for the room, but its location is in 4 different POS locations. If you prefer to look on http://www.ffxi-atlas.com/maps/alzadaal ... s/general/ the room is marked with an “E”
Party Suggestions:
• Can be duoed with BLM and RDM with endgame gear andkiting in this room.
• If no endgame gear, a ranged attack based party would be best. This would include RNG, THF, BLM, SMN, with a WHM or RDM/WHM for barfire included. Please note that this is not the party structure, but a guide towards which jobs are best suited for damaging this ZNM. Anyone damaging this ZNM should have /nin.melee damage
• Do not reclaim ZNM until it is inside the room, and links depoped at door way.

[willriker]

Vulpangue
Notes:
• Attacks quite fast
• Attacks hard
• Shadows absorb almost all attacks
• Special attacks are stronger on Windsday, Darksday
• Absorbs elemental damage matching the current game day
• Absorbs wind damage
• Also, like normal Puks, these spells will give 100% TP.
• Windshear, its most devistating attack, damage varies by game day. Absorbed by full shadows.
• Ele resist setup is not viable, as need too much and huge damage amounts can be avoided through planning fight for proper day.
Strategy:
• Ranged damage prefered
• Two tanks for safety, and higher hate threshold
• Avoid attacks that heal it, or give 100% TP
• Reserve fights for days Wind element is neutral to or weakend by
• Anyone not tanking should be outside of Windshear AoE range.

Optimum fight location:
Right at the spawn point is fine
Party setup:
• Blink tanks, 2 is best. I prefer a NIN/drk and a PLD/nin as they play off each other nicely.
• Damage should come from a distance. Jobs like THF, RNG, BLM, SMN, BST, PUP and so on. These damage dealers need to watch their hate gain, as if they pull hate they are now in Windshear range. Nuking, spamming arrows or w/e is not recommended. Take your time.
• A healer (RDM or WHM) and a support like brd or rdm.

[willriker]

Brass Borer
Notes:
• Slower movement speed than players (No + movement gear needed but helps)
• Only attacks with Cannonball (absorbed by one shadow)
• Strong spike damage, can be dispeled but difficult.
• Works exactly opposite to normal Wamouracampa. Takes more magic damage when stretched out. Less magic damage when curled up.
• Bind works
• Shadow bind works
• Aspir works
Strategy:
• Spawn > voke/flash/stun > shadow bind/bind > sneak/invisi > bring to area you are comfortable kiting without agroing. I like L-6 area.
• Tank kites in destination area, everyone else focus on killing any other adds
• Once link free, can focus on recouperation, then on fighting the ZNM.
• This is a kite fight, so watch enmity gain. Try to keep on tank. If it turns, run, your kiting now.
• Damage from a distance is good to have. Aka BLM, RNG, SAM/RNG, THF, PUP, and so on.
• Not much to this fight really, just watch for elemental pops
• Kite it on the cliff
• Do ranged damage
Optimum fight location:
The cliffs at L-6
Party makeup:
• Duoable with kiter and blm. Any more than this just speeds things along.