FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

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FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby strato on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:10 am

I'm asking for trouble starting this thread. It's bitter subject-matter to alot of you, but I always felt there should have been a modest petition concerning the January 2009 bannings. At the very least I expected some closure on the whole mess especially seeing some people getting off clean.

That aside, I lost some pretty close online pals with the bans. And overall, I was left with a bad after-taste. I don't know why I decided to just start a petition now of all times. Perhaps it's the discussions of the recent LM-17s.. But it's mostly out of obligation to lost comrades and my own self-gratification.

Anyways, I acknowledge that some of you will have a strong disapproval, but I guess you don't have to sign the petition then^^. To those that approve, please sign and help spread the petition. Thanks.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ff11padj/petition.html

Here's what it says:
Dear Square Enix,

The current account penalties for Final Fantasy XI are dissatisfactory with the online community. In particular, permanent banning is not always a befitting punishment, and the current penalty system has been too limiting by offering too few and broad options. This petition would like to propose amendments to the account penalties of FFXI.

This petition will open with two summaries of arguments from offenders and non-offenders. Keep firmly in mind: this does not express the entire community's sentiments on the matter; there are those that agree strongly with the inflexible punishment system. The undersigned of this petition request Square Enix and Final Fantasy XI development team to consider these arguments in determining the necessity of restructuring the account penalties. The undersigned of this petition do not necessarily agree on all or any of the arguments presented here; however, all undersigned of this petition request adjustments to the penalty system.

Offenders: The time, money (game purchase, expansions, & fees), and effort developing a FFXI character is often a hefty investment. In addition, one's personal life is sacrificed despite SE's best intentions. Relationships with friends and families, work time, and future prospects are often traded for active involvement in FFXI. The aftermath of a permanent ban is that of regret: the inability to find closure with what has been lost. And that of frustration: the inability to make amends and transitional change with real life.

Non-offenders: For persons directly connected, online interactions have been severed w/ friends and comrades. In some effect, gameplay is affected w/ in-game activities losing their key-members. For persons with no connections, the community feels the current penalty system does not appeal to the general consensus. Although offenders who have violated policy indeed offend the playerbase, the general community feels that permanent banning is not the true end-all solution. While the community is in agreement that violators should receive punishment, the community calls for a more befitting and fair punishment based on most circumstances. The current penalty system, however, displays reckless disregard and lack of concern for the customer; the devotion poured into crafting one's character should be taken more into consideration. The player should not have to forfeit considerable effort and sacrifice for often one mistake. To say the least, Square-Enix can offer a "reasonable" chance at paying for those mistakes. In addition, inadequacies have arisen that has left some doubt in the abilities of customer service and the Special Task Force (STF). January 2009 bannings left questionable inaccuracy in determining temporary and permanent bans; some offenders were not even charged with a LM-17. More recent bannings have been caused with trivial offenses like credit card mistakes and gardening mules not related to RMT activities. Lastly, customer service has been lacking in aiding customers especially to those banned in error.

Despite these arguments presented here, the community would like to reaffirm that offending actions should still have consequence. However, the account penalties should be restructured and, in effect, offer opportunities for redemption. While the community understands the arduous task of discerning legitimate players unrelated to RMT activities, the community requests Square Enix to make the attempt. At this time, the community of FFXI would like to offer ideas in context of these amendments:

i. Deletion of all equipment and items from character(s) on account (mog safe, mog locker, mog satchel, delivery box, & inventory)

ii. More options for temporary account suspension varying on offense (i.e. 1-6 months)

iii. Penalty fee(s) to reactivate character (i.e. $50-$150)

The above terms can be a single entity or a combination of them. In the event the account is perma-banned, the customer can be offered one instance of reactivation per account under the above condition(s). In extent, this one-time reactivation service can only apply to players who have no record of RMT activity in which investigation may be required.

In conclusion, the community requests a more tiered penalty system. Should SE still feel indifferent on the matter: in-depth disclosure and thorough explanation of permanent banning should be available to the customer upon request. We appreciate the time and concern.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Anthoron on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:13 am

lolonlinepetition

But seriously... the recent bannings are completely different to the Salvage bans. One is a complete PR !@#$%&, the other is people knowingly and willfully cheating. Comparing them is ridiculous and deceptive.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby strato on Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:22 am

Anthoron wrote:But seriously... the recent bannings are completely different to the Salvage bans. One is a complete PR !@#$%&, the other is people knowingly and willfully cheating. Comparing them is ridiculous and deceptive.

I did bring up that the gardening LM-17s spurred up the petition, but in the actual petition I only mention that the recent LM-17s displayed dubious methods of perma-banning. You're right there is a huge difference from cheating and by error. It's just inconsistent ban regulation that I was trying to point out in that argument.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Anthoron on Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:30 am

In the petition you say:
January 2009 bannings left questionable inaccuracy in determining temporary and permanent bans; some offenders were not even charged with a LM-17. More recent bannings have been caused with trivial offenses like credit card mistakes and gardening mules not related to RMT activities.


If it's the recent bannings you have an issue with, then you're petitioning against the wrong thing.

There's nothing wrong with the punishment system. The problem is that the recent bannings should never have been subjected to it in the first place.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Nymphadora on Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:52 am

The problem is that there should be a better investigation system in place to determine whether those banned were innocent or guilty. Rather than just throwing them all into the same category and saying "well, the computer system banned you so you must be rmt."
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Tahngarthor on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:29 am

I have no issue with people wanting petitions, but this is sure to get bloody quickly. If you agree, go ahead and sign the petition. if you don't, then don't.

Consider this fair warning, but this can continue as long as it stays civil.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby masekase on Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:00 am

hmmm have too agree with the january bans. They new what they were doing when they tried too cheat the game.They could of avoided it by reporting the glitch but they never.

With the gardening mules etc then yes they should be investigated more.

I think unfortunately your not gonna get lots of signatures because alot of ppl probably agree with the january bans.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby The Mysterious X on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:18 pm

Not gonna sign it. The punishments are fine, its the application of punishment that needs to be tweaked.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby charlottie on Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:08 am

temporary bans = nothing. if they told you it was temporary off the bat, that would be most gracious. :?

though honestly, i'd unban the people banned for salvage duping at this point, 'cause if they were to come back, you can be sure they'd have learned to tread a little more carefully at least. i would have to agree with those most furious of QQers who point out the sheer worth of a character that's been so honed over many years. i suppose such well developed characters are more influential on the system at large, and that requires at least a tiny bit of responsibility.. while on the other hand removing them totally causes at least the social fabric of the game to fray a little.

no doubt SE can be heavyhanded about this stuff, but i suppose that's only normal for a variety of such action(s) taken by anyone.

question is, in any case have we learned our lesson as a playerbase? not sure that's possible.

so, i should say i like (or really, i understand) the proposing of alternate punishments for serious infractions of the TOS. but not sure if i agree with doing them here or with any of those specifically. the truth is, as many times as SE should apologise and pay some heed to our plight, we should like to do the same for them. and that is NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER going to happen, in any form!
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Helixx on Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:40 am

The method of punishments should be adjusted. IE: GM drops some good stuff from your inventory or some of your gil.

However the January salvage bans are a very uncomfortable thing to touch upon. my 2 cents:
1) ppl reported the glitch but SE didn't fix it KNOWING the glitch for a long time, hence making people believe it was ok
2) If its a glitch that obviousely should NOT exist and you KNOW it ( making 2 armours out of 1) you should NOT use it
3) There is no written list of crimes you get permabans / temp bans for, so its hard telling if you do something allowed / wrong

Example for #3: When ZNM came out me and some friends killed armed gears by standing on the other side of the nyzule isle doors. According to SE it was cheating, since they did NOT INTEND for it to be killed like this. In our defence, we where killed often by that gear, as we had to be in close range to cast on it, and it did nuke us back sometimes.

In the end it comes down to this: If SE intended for something to be a certain was it is good. It they DID NOT INTEND something to go a certain way, it is a crime. No sarcasm.

Ok My oppinion and reason why i will stay out of this petition: PPL need to use reason. If something looks like a glitch and behaves like a glitch, than it propably is a glitch and since exploiting a glitch = LM-17, you propably want to leave your hands off of that.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby urthdigger on Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:45 am

charlottie wrote:though honestly, i'd unban the people banned for salvage duping at this point, 'cause if they were to come back, you can be sure they'd have learned to tread a little more carefully at least. i would have to agree with those most furious of QQers who point out the sheer worth of a character that's been so honed over many years. i suppose such well developed characters are more influential on the system at large, and that requires at least a tiny bit of responsibility.. while on the other hand removing them totally causes at least the social fabric of the game to fray a little.


Erm... so, are you saying that if someone has a high level character with plenty of rare items, they should be allowed to cheat? That doesn't really sound right, especially since it brings into question how they got their other things as well.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby charlottie on Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:31 am

urthdigger wrote:
charlottie wrote:though honestly, i'd unban the people banned for salvage duping at this point, 'cause if they were to come back, you can be sure they'd have learned to tread a little more carefully at least. i would have to agree with those most furious of QQers who point out the sheer worth of a character that's been so honed over many years. i suppose such well developed characters are more influential on the system at large, and that requires at least a tiny bit of responsibility.. while on the other hand removing them totally causes at least the social fabric of the game to fray a little.


Erm... so, are you saying that if someone has a high level character with plenty of rare items, they should be allowed to cheat? That doesn't really sound right, especially since it brings into question how they got their other things as well.


the contrary, that the more value your character has, the more you need to watch yourself. at least in theory.. though anyone (virtually) could abuse the hell out of salvage.. still, anyone with a billion gil could completely and legitimately change the prices of anything on the AH (gilseller style) if they pleased. with power, responsibility, ya know the drill. but these players are at the top of the foodchain, if you wanna think about the whole thing eco-style. so..

though in reality, most of the damage cheating linkshell owners cause(d) in being removed forcibly is to only a handful of people. only when this is widespread is it kind of ridiculous (everyone knows someone who knows someone who's been banned at the very least).. i know (knew as they've quit for irl) some people with gardening mules, would be pretty pissed if they got taken away for that, even knowing it was sketchy as hell of them :] for whatever reason, i don't mess around like that- i have 8 pots doing wildgrass seeds and i really do not mind :O and i wouldn't feel very OK saying something 'well i only play an hour a day so i can't farm!', some people just need to pay their dues and find income or go the hell away from the game.

as stated before i wish they'd just nerf this outright and in nominal fashion, and though that isn't a good precedent to set- they've done it before where perhaps even less neccessary.
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby urthdigger on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:36 am

charlottie wrote:
urthdigger wrote:
charlottie wrote:though honestly, i'd unban the people banned for salvage duping at this point, 'cause if they were to come back, you can be sure they'd have learned to tread a little more carefully at least. i would have to agree with those most furious of QQers who point out the sheer worth of a character that's been so honed over many years. i suppose such well developed characters are more influential on the system at large, and that requires at least a tiny bit of responsibility.. while on the other hand removing them totally causes at least the social fabric of the game to fray a little.


Erm... so, are you saying that if someone has a high level character with plenty of rare items, they should be allowed to cheat? That doesn't really sound right, especially since it brings into question how they got their other things as well.


the contrary, that the more value your character has, the more you need to watch yourself. at least in theory.. though anyone (virtually) could abuse the hell out of salvage.. still, anyone with a billion gil could completely and legitimately change the prices of anything on the AH (gilseller style) if they pleased. with power, responsibility, ya know the drill. but these players are at the top of the foodchain, if you wanna think about the whole thing eco-style. so..

though in reality, most of the damage cheating linkshell owners cause(d) in being removed forcibly is to only a handful of people. only when this is widespread is it kind of ridiculous (everyone knows someone who knows someone who's been banned at the very least).. i know (knew as they've quit for irl) some people with gardening mules, would be pretty pissed if they got taken away for that, even knowing it was sketchy as hell of them :] for whatever reason, i don't mess around like that- i have 8 pots doing wildgrass seeds and i really do not mind :O and i wouldn't feel very OK saying something 'well i only play an hour a day so i can't farm!', some people just need to pay their dues and find income or go the hell away from the game.

as stated before i wish they'd just nerf this outright and in nominal fashion, and though that isn't a good precedent to set- they've done it before where perhaps even less neccessary.


Ah, it sounded like you were saying that you agreed with people who said the bannings were a bad idea because it removed some fairly powerful people from the game and "frayed the social fabric"
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby charlottie on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:51 am

it can be an issue- that is to say i am not going to say it's a non-issue. bannings of actual players always ends up sounding like a pretty big deal, if it isn't one, anyways :o
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Re: FFXI Account Penalties Adjustment Petition

Postby Cyranda on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:52 am

everyone knows someone who knows someone who's been banned at the very least


That's because everyone knows someone who knows someone who makes a habit of reading forums. Video game forums, especially for MMO's, are very well known to be hotbeds of whining and over-blowing of relatively minor issues. The WoW developers (I hate using them as an example, because they tend to be a little unpleasant to deal with) mention this quite frequently on their forums when people start complaining about something.

***

Square-Enix may not make a public apology because this may not be as widespread as it appears to be. SE, because they have access to their own system, knows exactly how many people got banned for gardening, both legitimately and illegitimately. If the number was very small, they may determine that it is NOT in their best interest to issue an apology to people on the various forums because:

A) Apologizing to the entire community for something that happened to very few people is likely to confirm the (in this example, wrong) opinion of forum goers that SE "screwed up royally," even if they mention it happened to very few people. Forum goes, by and large, do not give companies the benefit of the doubt. In that case, it would be better to issue a private apology to those affected and leave the forums alone;

B) They have issued apologies recently regarding certain issues, and may not want to give players the idea that they can be blackmailed to act via forum attention. There has been some buzz on several forums, especially after the Pandemonium Warden change, about being "louder to get what we want." Again, as the WoW developers frequently mention, what players want is not always what is best for the game (getting what they want may ruin many other parts of the game or the game as a whole), or may not be possible given various circumstances. It's not always in the best interest of a company nor the playerbase for SE to constantly attend the "squeaky wheel." SE may want to avoid giving players the perception that they can force SE to make a decision, whether it be about design or public relations, for obvious reasons.

There are, of course, other reasons that they may not make an apology. On the other hand, they very well may decide that it is in their best interest to do so, but I can guarantee that people demanding it on the forums, especially people who *weren't* affected by the problem, will probably not be the reason why they chose to do so. Though it's hard for most forum-goers to imagine, the majority of this game's player base probably does not read the forums, much less post on them, another thing that the WoW developers are fond of mentioning about their own game. Forums are primarily a place where people go to vent/b*tch/etc., and the tone of the forums rarely reflect the tone in the rest of the game's players, despite the people that visit the forums to insist that EVERYONE IN THE GAME will quit/be angry/whatever because they're having a problem/issue, and no doubt SE realizes that.

Finally, with regard to the method of the banning, if it was indeed an automated system, it might be beneficial to keep in mind that the number of gil sellers may be too large for the company to individually examine each occurrence. If that is the case, and the problems created by gil sellers are thought to be more damaging to FFXI than the unintentional banning of a few players, especially if those bans last only a few days and are then reversed, then it makes sense to use an automated system. Consider, if there thousands of gil seller characters, the amount of man-hours and time it would take to specifically examine each one before removing the problem and it's relation to both the server economies and activity. While some will always fall into the "slightly inconvenient things should never happen to innocent people," the simple fact of the matter is that, if more customers would be lost due to the teeth grinding caused by gil sellers than would be lost by a few people not having access to the game for small number of days, SE is going to (try to) pick the option that hurts the game, and therefore its customers, the least.

In all, I think it would be nice for those who were mistakenly banned to receive an apology, though it might be best for it to be mailed to their Playonline accounts or what have you. As far as a public apology, well, if the problem wasn't as large as some people seem to think it is, that would be like the owner of a restaurant apologizing to everyone in the building because a couple of people got cold food, even if that made some people afraid that THEY might one day get cold food. On the other hand, if it was very widespread, then an apology might indeed be a welcome thing that will assuage many people's fears.
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