New Summoner questions

[Tahngarthor]

Most common thing right now is einherjar. Most of the mobs don't have MP, and even when they do, they're resistant to darkness (What miraun said may help here but it's not worth my time or effort when I'm just fine on /WHM). On Odin I absolutely must have erase to unbind myself and others. I also use spell blink and stoneskin which is far more convenient for myself a lot of the time than summoning an avatar to do it. I don't merit or XP on SMN, and even if I did, if I cast aspir on a bird, it's either going to aspir more MP back or aspir someone else. Not all the mamool camp mobs have MP either, so you have to wait for the right mob to come- if you need MP *now* too bad, you have to wait for the puller to bring a BLU or BLM mob.

for Chaprix MMM, don't really need erase but only the beetles in one of the 10 miniquests are aspirable, and I don't really need all the MP I have for this run anyway, so I don't gain anything from sub or aspir.

Golden salvage, just don't need it. Can do the whole thing with any random avatar and dont need sublim or aspir or anything else.

Limbus I don't really do anymore but it largely depends on the run. But these days, if I do go on a limbus run I use PUP because most of the stuff I did on SMN in there, PUP can actually do better.

Dynamis offers the best oppertunity, but even then on runs like jeuno and to a lesser extent BCD, I would often get caught paralyzed while putting on dark arts and aspiring, and would lose my strategms trying to switch back and reenable status cures, or depend on someone else. Whereas on /WHM I can remove para from myself no trouble in all situations, thus needing no attention from anyone else. Aspir is hit or miss with some pulls not having any mobs with MP and when they do they're usually the first ones to die, and they die too fast for me to hit dark arts and aspir quickly.

I havent done any HNM recently, but most HNMs do not have MP and I need spell stoneskin for my own safety (e.g. fafnir, cerberus for example).

Sky, anything I do there I don't use SMN anymore because PUP is better (kirin especially).

So, for me, even in the best case, /SCH just isn't attractive enough for me to switch to it.

[Kenji]

Most common thing right now is einherjar..

I go WHM to most Ein's, so I can't speak to that. But for Odin, the SMN party always has a BRD/WHM at least, who can erase the bind on the times when we all run in, if it's needed. Personal stoneskin may be nice, but me or another SMN always reapplies Earthen Ward as needed, since it's stronger. And like I said, having more mp is great because of the times when you need to push damage to drop him below a certain % to depop the adds or trigger the specific aoe. I always have mp to do it.

I don't merit or XP on SMN, and even if I did, if I cast aspir on a bird, it's either going to aspir more MP back or aspir someone else. Not all the mamool camp mobs have MP either, so you have to wait for the right mob to come- if you need MP *now* too bad, you have to wait for the puller to bring a BLU or BLM mob.

I usually go as WHM to meripo as well, but I've had no problems aspir'ing birds as WHM/SCH. The trick is to aspir at max range, then run out for a bit, so it aspirs one of the melee, who don't care about mp. On the plus side, the time it spends aspiring a melee, is time it's not hitting them, so they take less damage overall and have more time for shadows.

for Chaprix MMM, don't really need erase but only the beetles in one of the 10 miniquests are aspirable, and I don't really need all the MP I have for this run anyway, so I don't gain anything from sub or aspir.

I don't do MMM, so I can't speak to this.

Golden salvage, just don't need it. Can do the whole thing with any random avatar and dont need sublim or aspir or anything else.

Can agree here. Although sometimes the extra mp can help if I get fish aggro (which happens when I get impatient and try to chance it, heh).

Limbus I don't really do anymore but it largely depends on the run. But these days, if I do go on a limbus run I use PUP because most of the stuff I did on SMN in there, PUP can actually do better.

While I don't have PUP, so I can't speak to that. But there are aspirable mobs in almost every zone.

Dynamis offers the best oppertunity, but even then on runs like jeuno and to a lesser extent BCD, I would often get caught paralyzed while putting on dark arts and aspiring, and would lose my strategms trying to switch back and reenable status cures, or depend on someone else. Whereas on /WHM I can remove para from myself no trouble in all situations, thus needing no attention from anyone else. Aspir is hit or miss with some pulls not having any mobs with MP and when they do they're usually the first ones to die, and they die too fast for me to hit dark arts and aspir quickly.

I don't understand. The paralyze is probably from the slimes, and that's a small fraction of BCD. Also, as a SMN, I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH. If your pullers and/or LS are any good, you should know what's coming. There should be people calling out what kind of mobs are incoming, so the rest of the LS can best deal with them. So slimes shouldn't catch you by surprise. Even so, it's a small fraction of Dynamis.

Also, I tend to aspir sleeping mobs or wyverns; stuff not being fought, so I know I can get mp before it dies. The sleepers and the PLDs who cure/buff the sleepers get more hate than I do with a single aspir, so no danger there.

I havent done any HNM recently, but most HNMs do not have MP and I need spell stoneskin for my own safety (e.g. fafnir, cerberus for example).

I haven't done HNM for years, either. Most aren't aspirable, but as I've mentioned earlier, the trick is to prove to your LS leader that you are self-sufficient and don't need support. For you, you can probably get away with it or go as PUP for those things which you feel PUP is better for. But new SMNs, if they want to do HNMs or other events, need all the tricks they can get to prove they are worthwhile. A SMN who needs to rest, is a SMN who isn't buffing or doing damage.

So while you may be able to get away with, most new SMNs should be very familiar with all aspects of using /SCH, as it's very beneficial. I'd still recommend having /WHM as well.

[Miraun]

tldr:
/SCH and /WHM are both viable subs that you should level and decide for yourself which situations call for each subjob.

[Tahngarthor]

I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH.

Murphy's law. Every time i hit dark arts for aspir, I get paralyzed. It just happens. Also, it's not just slimes, it's goblins doing paralysis shower.

[Kenji]

tldr:
/SCH and /WHM are both viable subs that you should level and decide for yourself which situations call for each subjob.

Too simplistic, especially when a new SMN is looking for advice. The better thing to say is: Have both, but really learn to use /SCH well, because odds are it'll be the best for you 90% of the time.

This is considering that SMN is your only lv75. It's bad to say that another job is better, if the person doesn't have that job at 75. This is a forum for people who want to learn to be their best as a summoner.

I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH.

Murphy's law. Every time i hit dark arts for aspir, I get paralyzed. It just happens. Also, it's not just slimes, it's goblins doing paralysis shower.

Well, then you have the crappiest luck out of anyone I've ever known and the gods must really hate you.

Or, the other explanation for this type of thing, is that it normally goes fine 90% of the time. People only notice it when things go bad (like para proc'ing on a paralyna) and so have the impression it happens more often than it really does. Not many can really understand this aspect of human nature.

[Tannlore]

I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH.

Murphy's law. Every time i hit dark arts for aspir, I get paralyzed. It just happens. Also, it's not just slimes, it's goblins doing paralysis shower.

Murphy's loop hole: don't be in range of these effects.

[Tahngarthor]

I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH.

Murphy's law. Every time i hit dark arts for aspir, I get paralyzed. It just happens. Also, it's not just slimes, it's goblins doing paralysis shower.

Murphy's loop hole: don't be in range of these effects.

That's what everyone says but it's not always avoidable.

[Tannlore]

I'd be running around in addendum white, so odds are, my chances of paralyna'ing myself are the same whether I'm /WHM or /SCH.

Murphy's law. Every time i hit dark arts for aspir, I get paralyzed. It just happens. Also, it's not just slimes, it's goblins doing paralysis shower.

Murphy's loop hole: don't be in range of these effects.

That's what everyone says but it's not always avoidable.

Very true, which also means the contrary: You shouldn't always be getting paralyzed either right? Your luck might change a bit more if you back off at these times Plenty of things in dynamis to aspir, no need to really be that up close and personal with AoE paralyzing mobs 100% of the time right?

[Tahngarthor]

Besides that it's like miraun noted earlier. It isn't always effective, and so I'd have to carry around extra gear for dark magic. And due to various circumstances, it's not always convenient to do that.

The main cause of the para problem is really other mages pulling hate, bringing them closer to us. We end up having to move around a lot to avoid it. It's not always as simple as it seems. Jeuno is just the worst spot for it. I'm more comfortable with the sub in bastok where there are no AoEs from the regular mobs and thus no significant need for blink or stoneskin and no signficant need for status heals either.

[Kenji]

Besides that it's like miraun noted earlier. It isn't always effective, and so I'd have to carry around extra gear for dark magic. And due to various circumstances, it's not always convenient to do that.

Every job has multiple gear sets nowadays to max their effectiveness at all aspects. Even DRKs have a Dark magic set for their aspirs. You're have SCH at 75, too. You should have Dark magic gear. I macro a Dark Torque and Nashira boots in to my aspirs. Along with Pluto staff, that works well enough for me.

The main cause of the para problem is really other mages pulling hate, bringing them closer to us. We end up having to move around a lot to avoid it. It's not always as simple as it seems. Jeuno is just the worst spot for it. I'm more comfortable with the sub in bastok where there are no AoEs from the regular mobs and thus no significant need for blink or stoneskin and no signficant need for status heals either.

You're pretty much deciding your play style on a couple of places in one zone, then, which doesn't sound very smart. No offense. Even in Jeuno, there's only 2, maybe 3 spots where you run into an excess of slimes. I know when those spots are coming, and prepare for it by keeping an eye on the slimes and keeping my distance. Our mages are pretty good at keeping them slept/silenced, tho, and then nuking them down (which means the BLMs are supposed to be pulling hate). Melee'ing slimes is a good way to spray your entire group with fluid spread.

[Miraun]

The main cause of the para problem is really other mages pulling hate, bringing them closer to us. We end up having to move around a lot to avoid it. It's not always as simple as it seems. Jeuno is just the worst spot for it. I'm more comfortable with the sub in bastok where there are no AoEs from the regular mobs and thus no significant need for blink or stoneskin and no signficant need for status heals either.

You're pretty much deciding your play style on a couple of places in one zone, then, which doesn't sound very smart. No offense. Even in Jeuno, there's only 2, maybe 3 spots where you run into an excess of slimes. I know when those spots are coming, and prepare for it by keeping an eye on the slimes and keeping my distance. Our mages are pretty good at keeping them slept/silenced, tho, and then nuking them down (which means the BLMs are supposed to be pulling hate). Melee'ing slimes is a good way to spray your entire group with fluid spread.

That's entirely dependant on the makeup of your dynamis group. Not every LS does things similiarly.

There really should not be any further debate on this topic. /WHM and /SCH are both viable in different situations depending on your playstyle and way you want to play.

[Tahngarthor]

You're pretty much deciding your play style on a couple of places in one zone, then, which doesn't sound very smart. No offense.

Offense taken. You don't know the make up of our group, and you don't know what happens when I'm not in a situation not listed. There's nothing wrong with my perference, both subs have their usefulness and their downfalls. Stop being so judgemental of others. Much as you would seem to like to believe it, SMNs are not automatically "gimp" if they choose to use WHM sub when they feel it is appropriate. Likewise, the same goes for SCH sub, or even other subs in certain situations. I don't use SCH as much as some people to avoid having to deal with some annoyances and hassles that can come with the sub. That's just my preference. If you can deal with it, by all means keep using it. But don't pick me apart for when I choose not to.

[Kenji]

Offense taken. You don't know the make up of our group, and you don't know what happens when I'm not in a situation not listed. There's nothing wrong with my perference, both subs have their usefulness and their downfalls. Stop being so judgemental of others. Much as you would seem to like to believe it, SMNs are not automatically "gimp" if they choose to use WHM sub when they feel it is appropriate. Likewise, the same goes for SCH sub, or even other subs in certain situations. I don't use SCH as much as some people to avoid having to deal with some annoyances and hassles that can come with the sub. That's just my preference. If you can deal with it, by all means keep using it. But don't pick me apart for when I choose not to.

As much as some would like to believe otherwise, this game is made up of numbers. 3 is always going to be bigger than 2. I'm sure you'd have a problem with a lv75 warrior joining your group, who wanted to continue using a lv10 sword.

It's all fine to do what you like, as it's your 13 bucks a month.

But most people have an issue with giving new players bad advice that doesn't allow them to be the best they can be. Afterall, it's annoying and a hassle to deal with macro swaps, too, so melee should just stick to one set, right? It's annoying and a hassle for melee to keep buying food, and level nin sub, and buy pots and such for stuff like Dynamis Lord...

But I bet we all appreciate when they do, because since they are trying to be the best they can, things don't take so long to kill. It's all individual play style, true, but I suppose mine is not to slack off when everyone else is doing their best. And I'd highly encourage any new SMN (especially because of the job) to strive for max effectiveness.

[Tannlore]

There really should not be any further debate on this topic. /WHM and /SCH are both viable in different situations depending on your playstyle and way you want to play.

This

[Miraun]

Offense taken. You don't know the make up of our group, and you don't know what happens when I'm not in a situation not listed. There's nothing wrong with my perference, both subs have their usefulness and their downfalls. Stop being so judgemental of others. Much as you would seem to like to believe it, SMNs are not automatically "gimp" if they choose to use WHM sub when they feel it is appropriate. Likewise, the same goes for SCH sub, or even other subs in certain situations. I don't use SCH as much as some people to avoid having to deal with some annoyances and hassles that can come with the sub. That's just my preference. If you can deal with it, by all means keep using it. But don't pick me apart for when I choose not to.

As much as some would like to believe otherwise, this game is made up of numbers. 3 is always going to be bigger than 2. I'm sure you'd have a problem with a lv75 warrior joining your group, who wanted to continue using a lv10 sword.

It's all fine to do what you like, as it's your 13 bucks a month.

But most people have an issue with giving new players bad advice that doesn't allow them to be the best they can be. Afterall, it's annoying and a hassle to deal with macro swaps, too, so melee should just stick to one set, right? It's annoying and a hassle for melee to keep buying food, and level nin sub, and buy pots and such for stuff like Dynamis Lord...

But I bet we all appreciate when they do, because since they are trying to be the best they can, things don't take so long to kill. It's all individual play style, true, but I suppose mine is not to slack off when everyone else is doing their best. And I'd highly encourage any new SMN (especially because of the job) to strive for max effectiveness.

No, that argument does not apply here. That's like saying that there's no time that you will ever need /NIN if you have /SAM. It is not a binary 'better' state between the two subjobs. Mathematics cannot evaluate the strength of having a second erase in a given situation. Math is used to evaluate melee gearsets or playstyles, not effectiveness of subjob selection.

Honestly, as this petty pickering about subjobs drags on, all your doing is proving that you're so closed out to a possible alternative that is stronger in some circumstances, you look more and more novice every time you try to convince people that you're right.