PUP/SCH

[KeiKusanagi]

I found a rather interesting video on Youtube last night. Thought you guys might like to see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj3QQH88QB0

Discuss!


(Also for some reason I can't put the video straight into the post, could someone tell me what the little tag thingies I use to do it are?)

[Tahngarthor]

Not something you truly need sch for, though it does make it a little more fun :p

I've straight tanked those with no evasion gear and war sub and whm head, they aren't as tough as they look. Certainly nice to have more options however

[KeiKusanagi]

I guess when you want to manaburn now (I've had some PUPs in manaburns, they're pretty good) you can now have a useful subjob now. I used to have my friend go PUP/DRK so he could stun things, now he can Sleep things.

[kroot]

in a larger manaburn i would go /brd for ballad but /sch does give a form of self refresh which is nice for some things
my friends laugh when they see my pup in all my mage gear

[Miraun]

I consistantly use PUP/SCH for salvage. Cheaper cures, the ability to Regen 2, and lets face it, you don't really get refreshed too often as a PUP, so the Sublimation can be a nice touch.

PUP's H2H is sadly, laughable. So when it comes to mobs that either have deadly TP moves, or I simply can't hit consistantly, I just pull out either SS or a mage frame, switch to light or dark arts, and go to town.

Since PUP has access to so much mage gear, it's fun, easy, and enjoyable to land a nice 300 damage Drain or 100 MP Aspir.

Honestly, in the end, with the additional JAs, and magic to cast, PUP/SCH is overall just a fun job combination to play!

[Resheph]

I really agree that the more you look at it, the more /SCH seems like a pretty viable subjob for Puppetmaster. The fact is that we have a lot of mage gear and subbing SCH will give you a nice 246 in six different spell skills. This is higher enfeebling magic than BLMs have natively. Sleep + Puppet Nuke, Yes Please. Take that into account knowing that even after capping H2H merits you can still only have 241 H2H skill. I'm working on leveling SCH and collecting enfeebling skill+ items so I can try this out.

[Tahngarthor]

SCH will give you a nice 246 in six different spell skills.

Sounds good on paper, but:
Healing skill is almost meaningless
Enhancing skill is almost meaningless, with protect, shell, regen/2 and reraise
PUP/SCH have no divine spells whatsoever
PUP/SCH has no enfeeble spells whatsoever other than sleep
The best elemental spell available to you is Water II

Drain and aspir is nice, but then again the only thing you'll use aspir for is to get back the MP used on drain and cure III. You really give this too much credit. Vialble? sure. But it looks to me like people are just trying to find excuses to justify the mage gear PUP can use and whine about its low weapon skill level.

You're better off subbing WHM (or DNC) if you want to have cures, as you'll also get the status cures and most else of what's useful from SCH sub, given PUP has no natural MP either. Or /COR to buff the automaton, or /BRD for ballad 1 etc...

Personally I think /DNC runs circles around /SCH for PUP, but hey, thats just my NSHO.

[Calcobrena]

SCH will give you a nice 246 in six different spell skills.

Sounds good on paper, but:
Healing skill is almost meaningless
Enhancing skill is almost meaningless, with protect, shell, regen/2 and reraise
PUP/SCH have no divine spells whatsoever
PUP/SCH has no enfeeble spells whatsoever other than sleep
The best elemental spell available to you is Water II

Drain and aspir is nice, but then again the only thing you'll use aspir for is to get back the MP used on drain and cure III. You really give this too much credit. Vialble? sure. But it looks to me like people are just trying to find excuses to justify the mage gear PUP can use and whine about its low weapon skill level.

You're better off subbing WHM (or DNC) if you want to have cures, as you'll also get the status cures and most else of what's useful from SCH sub, given PUP has no natural MP either. Or /COR to buff the automaton, or /BRD for ballad 1 etc...

Personally I think /DNC runs circles around /SCH for PUP, but hey, thats just my NSHO.

I'd have to agree, but I did take the time to try this out. When soloing any sleepable VT, or IT that don't have pets and aren't sleep resistant, this is a really impressive way to solo. Before if I soloed a VT or IT on PUP/DNC, I would think wow, this job can be pretty amazing. But with PUP/SCH, just about anyone can solo many level ~80 monsters with just a few simple macros, and some relatively cheap equipment.

While PUP/SCH isn't my preferred style for playing PUP, this sub is definitely impressive, and just emphasizes the point that PUP's true strength is its versatility. On any VT, IT mobs that run at normal or below normal speed, don't have pets or draw-in, and aren't sleep resistant, this is a really effective, safe, and relatively cheap approach.

On a side note, this is also an effective way to handle black-mage type mobs easy prey or higher, which can sometimes be a pain in the ass if your Automaton doesn't silence them and you don't have the TP to stun them. Black mage Qiqirns, and Pots in sky were no match for this combination

[Miraun]

SCH will give you a nice 246 in six different spell skills.

Sounds good on paper, but:
Healing skill is almost meaningless
Enhancing skill is almost meaningless, with protect, shell, regen/2 and reraise
PUP/SCH have no divine spells whatsoever
PUP/SCH has no enfeeble spells whatsoever other than sleep
The best elemental spell available to you is Water II

Good points to highlight

I didn't quote it here, but using Drain and Aspir can just be /FUN/. Throw on a dark staff, a houpplunde, and maybe some R.Pumps if you have em, and you'll land it for enough to make up for the life you're losing from Sublimation. Overall, I find Drains hit much harder than any attempted nuke.

You're better off subbing WHM (or DNC) if you want to have cures, as you'll also get the status cures and most else of what's useful from SCH sub, given PUP has no natural MP either. Or /COR to buff the automaton, or /BRD for ballad 1 etc...

Personally I think /DNC runs circles around /SCH for PUP, but hey, thats just my NSHO.

You're right, but you're missing a few points.
Foremost, with Addendum White and Addendum Black, you get a lot of the -na spells (not erase though), and with Addendum black, you get Dispel.
As stated, since PUP has no natural mana regen, the /SCH does give Sublimation. Since PUP is usually busy meleeing or just paying more attention to the automaton, the Sublimation is nice. Additionally, since PUPs have no natural MP, the amount stored by sublimation is enough to completely fill your MP (depending on your race, of course).

Like all subs, /SCH is situational. Personally I perfer /WAR for soloing, for the subtle defense boost, the ability to provoke (which allows me to wear things like Goliard Trews with -emnity and -damage taken.

/SCH offers the same cures as /WHM, with a little more potency (while Healing Magic is not THAT powerful, you will can get an extra 5 or so HP off of your cure 3s) for reduced mana costs. It also gives Regen 2, which is awesome since most parties rely on RDM healing, and the most a RDM can toss out is a regen1. And in events like Salvage, where the main healing RDM tends to be busy with a billion things, the ability to dispel and sleep do come in handy.

As long as Erase is not 100% necessary, or as long as someone else can cover it, /SCH is better than /WHM.

[Lionix]

Miraun got to the point I want to expand and Calcobrena made sure to address something I find vital when analyzing what a Puppetmaster can do with a new weapon.

Miraun remembered that this is situational. Dancer and Warrior are superior, sure, if you are thinking normal partying or merits, but that wouldn't be the case in a manaburn party. What about, like pointed above, in situations in which even a stubborn mule like myself would have to admit "My melee capabilities are lacking, I should fall back and let my automaton take my place", like Salvage and gods? Standing behind with 0%TP doesn't do wonders to Dancer or Warrior. I don't think this is "people just trying to find excuses to justify the mage gear PUP can use and whine about its low weapon skill level.", I think this is using all our resources to make us shine at what we are ALL about, which Calcobrena pointed out: versatility

Sadly (for some), Puppetmaster can't be as versatile as others at all times, like a Red Mage or a Scholar, we need to rely on our subjobs, gear and our Automatons (which can't be changed mid-fight in a second like a Scholar and his arts do) for versatility, however, our range in that area is much, much wider than any others. We CAN fit in ANY situation, but we must have the required tools at the ready.

On that note: I've lurked for years and I have yet to find information on just HOW effective would subbing Corsair for Sky and such events be, instead of a mage job. I will someday get to try it myself, I guess, but any experienced input would be appreciated.

[Miraun]

I have yet to finish up my COR sub, because I'm feeling jewy, and don't feel like firing bullets or leveling up my currently 3 marksmanship skill...

However, from what I've read on COR forums, the rolls are very weak when using COR as a sub. When I say weak... I think COR's PUP/BST/w/e roll increases our potency by 5%... as a sub it would increase it by 2.5%... 2.5%.. that's an extra 5 damage on a 200 damage whatnot. Overall, not terribly impressive.

While yes, COR will offer the damage boost, I'd still recommend /SCH for versatility and overall effectiveness in an HNM situation. The situation that comes to mind is if your VE frame just got hit by a nasty AoE, and is down to 200 life. Burning a Role Reveral is quite a stress on your healers, and even if you do nothing else with you MP other than cure yourself, it's still MP well spent. There are very few instances where additional healing will be turned down.

On the other hand, if your LS has many SMNs or PUPs, then the effectiveness of the COR sub would be heightened. However, subbing COR strictly to boost ONLY the PUP, I cannot see that as functional or necessary as /SCH.

[Lionix]

What about using Healer's, Hunter's or Chaos on other, running far and doing Puppet/Beast for yourself?
I can plainly see how /SCH seems to have the upper hand, but I just want to explore all the possibilities. Not to mention, the case in which a shell has 6,391 Red Mages is not even rare anymore, so we might want to have "something" these army of Red Mages don't...

The attack bonus might be negligible, but I don't know about the accuracy... with all the Accuracy Enhancing attachments we got, this 2.5% or so might be something to look forward to. What do you think?

[Miraun]

What about using Healer's, Hunter's or Chaos on other, running far and doing Puppet/Beast for yourself?
I can plainly see how /SCH seems to have the upper hand, but I just want to explore all the possibilities. Not to mention, the case in which a shell has 6,391 Red Mages is not even rare anymore, so we might want to have "something" these army of Red Mages don't...

The attack bonus might be negligible, but I don't know about the accuracy... with all the Accuracy Enhancing attachments we got, this 2.5% or so might be something to look forward to. What do you think?

Nah, for longer HNM battles, where you can tack on a Target Marker and Heatseeker, ACC isn't really an issue. Mainly from the heatseeker. I know Tramp tends to start off with like... 60-70% ACC on Omega, but then after 5 minutes or so, is at 90% or so. Really hard to test attachments like that. The selling point of PUPs are the Attuner, Target Marker, and Heat Seeker attachments.

[Lionix]

I see, makes sense. Thank you for the info.

[KeiKusanagi]

Mini-Necropost! I was on Youtube the other day and I found this little video series, it's a PUP/SCH soloing a Chain 4 on Wamoura Prince. Thought it might be worth checking out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgmEg2c6-Q

PS: The earlier videos should be just to the left if you want to see his earlier kills. Also, the poster of the video makes this comment, "I was just testing out INT food. The thing about PUP is getting Overload. Overload have a threshold on how many that can be spam in a span of time before Overload happens more and more often. Having more of one particular stats over the PUP raises the threshold. INT for Ice Maneuvers. Less Overload proc, then less downtime." Any truth to it?